Druid Shifting and Full Heal

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Druid Shifting and Full Heal

Post  Lord_Spanky on Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:14 pm

i currently have 2x lvl 30 shifters on the legends of arcadia server.

as an experienced shifter with the current kaedrins patch i can definately say that nerfing the full heal will make shifters unusable.

they already suffer from very low ab, which makes them hard enough to play as it is.

everytime an autosave occurs (every 5 minutes) i lose ac dmg and ab .. as well as the dmg from storm avatar and flame weapon ..

this forces me to have to deshift then reshift then rebuff in order to continue fighting.

the deshifting/reshifting/rebuffing process takes up 4 rounds of time, leaves you very vulnerable, and always causes you to take damage.

unlimited shifts are necessary due to autosave, but so is full heal.

autosave is the problem, not full heal.

if pvpers have a problem with it then it should be made a server based issue, not a patch fix.

servers should set rules against abusing the shift heal in pvp.

however, in pvm, while doing solo boss runs i can say with absolute certainty that not having full heal on my shifter will make him unusable.

it would be completely unfair to have to suffer the loss of ab, dmg, and ac every 5 minutes, the damage took while reshifting and recasting buffs, and not at least get healed when i reshift.

plus deshifting itself causes a loss of life that would futher add to hp loss once reshifted if the character doesnt heal.

ultimately, without shift heal you would be forced to lose massive amounts of life on a regular basis before finally being able to continue attacking.

obviously it goes without saying that this happening at a critical moment means an unfair death.

shifters will be unusable without full heal and unlimited shifts.

the only thing that should be done is at server side in the rule book.

relatively speaking, there is only a very small percentage of players who would actually complain about this.

most of those people are pvpers who have no experience playing a full time shifter themselves.

finally, let me just say that you cannot save your life in a difficult solo boss fight by reshifting to heal if youre health is getting low.

99% of the time one of two things will happen, you will deshift and die of negative hp, or you will be killed by the boss in the process.

reshifting during a difficult boss fight or mob fight can only be accomplished if you already have enough hp to do so, in which case there is no need to shift heal and you would only be doing it in the first place because the autosave bug just occured.

plz do not make the mistake of nerfing shifters. its difficult enough to play as one as it is.


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Re: Druid Shifting and Full Heal

Post  Lord_Spanky on Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:09 pm

imagine being in a difficult boss fight with your shifter.

you do damage very slowly due to your low ab, so most boss fights will cross an autosave point.

an autosave happens, and the only remedy here is to deshift and reshift as fast as humanly possible (healing first if necessary) and pray that you survive the process.

now imagine that you survive this gamble, but you reshift only to have 80% of your health missing.

keep in mind that even once reshifted, you will still have to recast storm avatar and flame sword to supplement your low damage (since you get no ab or dmg bonus's from items while shifted) .. another 2 rounds of taking punishment while you are not able to return the dmg.

will you be able to recover? the chances are very poor indeed.

the only thing that isnt right about shifters with current kaedrin's is the autosave bug itself.

nothing would make me happier than to have NO unlimited shifts, NO shift heal, and NO autosave bug.

to remove shift heal is to condemn the already tiny population of dedicated shifters out there to playing a different class or build.

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Re: Druid Shifting and Full Heal

Post  Meesterslager on Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:36 am

The fact that u can kill mayor bosses without gear after like a few days on LOA, means this is a problem.

These are supposed to be team effords, and soloing is only put away for a select few who know every ins and outs of LOA and have some skills.
The fact that your also kinda immortal in PvP, also suggests this is an issue.

The autosave bug is a remnant on nwn1, and cant be fixed without opening a ton of exploits, or we would have done so decades ago.
Having seen u in action, with that new Kaedrin shift form, I would hardly call u weak. just use regeneration spells and bring a healing friend or use heal kits and you are ok.

When Kaedrin asked me what I wanted to get fixed first, this one was my first answer.

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Re: Druid Shifting and Full Heal

Post  Lord_Spanky on Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:30 am

Meesterslager wrote:The fact that u can kill mayor bosses without gear after like a few days on LOA, means this is a problem.

These are supposed to be team effords, and soloing is only put away for a select few who know every ins and outs of LOA and have some skills.
The fact that your also kinda immortal in PvP, also suggests this is an issue.

The autosave bug is a remnant on nwn1, and cant be fixed without opening a ton of exploits, or we would have done so decades ago.
Having seen u in action, with that new Kaedrin shift form, I would hardly call u weak. just use regeneration spells and bring a healing friend or use heal kits and you are ok.

When Kaedrin asked me what I wanted to get fixed first, this one was my first answer.

first off ive been on the server 2 weeks .. not a few days .. and i am most certainly not without decent gear .. just without paragon gear ..

tag along when i kill vamp next time ..

btw he is the only boss i have killed ..

i do not reshift heal for anything accept when autosave happens ..

i reshift once in a vamp fight .. because it always crosses a single autosave point ..

so you think its fair that when this autosave happens i have to suffer the rather extreme consequences of this bug with no compensation ??

my character has very good stats .. but he is balanced by his rather weak hitting power ..

i built him right .. it took me several tries and lots of pen and paper work ..

i did my research with classes and i earned that character ..

i am not exploiting anything and for you to accuse me of there being something wrong with my character simply because i can solo vamp is uncalled for ..

when i fight vamp i have 2x regens 3x premonitions and 6x heals ..

when i get done i usually have 3-4 heals left .. so plenty of breathing room ..

i simply know how to play my well built character ..

i first kill warriors then make spam spike growth .. then i wait for autosave to happen .. then i reshift/rebuff .. then i draw him away from priestesses and toward my patch with an ice storm .. and once i am in battle with him i cast premo and heal as needed ..

I CANT MAKE MYSELF ANY CLEARER THAN THIS .. I DO NOT NEED NOR USE SHIFT HEAL EXPLOITATIVELY IN A BOSS FIGHT ..

shift heal has nothing to do with my ability to solo vamp .. accept that without it i would probably be doomed by the inevitable autosave ..

if you dont believe me you may tag along with me when i kill vamp and see how i do it ..

but do not make assumptions about me using exploits .. i do not simply because the cost/risk of deshifting isnt worth the heal .. which i dont need anywayz ..

as far as pvp .. it should be made a server rule like i said .. it shouldnt be a nerfing of shifters .. thats an unfair and unbalanced decision ..

i have never ever used shift heal in pvp to save my life .. EVER .. AND I NEVER WILL ..

when i used it vs peasant i openly told him what i was doing .. i was only trying to discourage him so he would let me go back to leveling ..

i was never in ANY danger from him at all .. i just didnt want to waste 5-10 minutes waiting for the stalemate to come to some kind of conclusion ..

further more .. trying to reshift heal to save your life vs a good pvper is kinda like doing it vs vamp .. its hardly worth the risk ..

its not like its some kind of fountain of immortality .. you have simply been given the wrong impression and clearly dont have experience with it yourself ..

i was able to do it consequence free vs peasant because his ab wasnt high enough to pose any danger to me ..

i sense a lot of jealousy regarding my ability to solo vamp .. its not right and its really immature ..

i should be congratulated for building something different than others and being successful at it ..

and for my persistence through the nightmare of learning to play with autosave ..

also my primary focus is pvm .. i care little for pvp .. all my build choices revolve around fighting bosses ..

do you honestly think that the proper decision is to ruin my character simply because of jealousy and one angry pvper ??

do you have any idea how much of a hassle dealing with autosave is ??

try it out before you pass judgement .. ok ..

btw .. as far as using healing kits ..

i cannot use potions or healing kits .. only my spells ..

fyi .. you cannot use such things while shifted ..

and to deshift and try to use them while getting wailed on by vamp would absolutely be suicide ..

that being said .. i have more than enough healing spells to get me through the fight ..

i do not cast offensively .. all my slots are for buffs and healing power ..

when shifted and buffed (druid) .. i have 52 ab (there is your balance) feat given 18 dr 624 life 21 regen (without vigorous cycle) and very high ac with only my tortoise shell ..

there is nothing out of place about my ability to solo vamp ..

its just that i created a build nobody else uses ..

plz guys .. stop drinking the hateorade ..

edit:

its not a matter of not using healing spells or w/e as you suggest i do .. i use them anywayz and would be fine getting through the fight that way without having to reshift ..

its a matter of unfairly being subjected to lots of damage that i otherwise wouldnt take, all while not being able to do damage myself ..

if i have to reshift due to the bug without the shift heal then more often than not i will not be able to recover due to the high damage taken when my stats drop during a boss fight .. not to mention the rebuffing that follows ..

autosave bug is the problem .. shiftheal is only a compensation ..

you seem to think that my character relies on shift heal in some other way than for autosave .. he does not .. he does not need to ..

or that shift heal makes him unbalanced somehow in favor of survival .. it does not ..

the fact is that it would be much easier to play without both the autosave bug and shift heal than with both ..

do you follow that logic ??

the shifter is handicapped by the bug to a greater degree than he is helped by shift heal ..

to FURTHER handicap shifters by removing shift heal is an unbalanced choice ..





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Re: Druid Shifting and Full Heal

Post  Digger on Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:17 pm

"I CANT MAKE MYSELF ANY CLEARER THAN THIS .. I DO NOT NEED NOR USE SHIFT HEAL EXPLOITATIVELY IN A BOSS FIGHT .."

Then why do you care that you will no longer regain HP?

Your main complaint is that when an auto save hits, you need to reshift. Nobody is going to stop you from doing that, you will still be able to have unlimited shifts...so whats the problem?

However, doing so will no longer automatically restore your HP to full, but as you said several times, your not shifting to heal yourself...so this should not effect you at all.

Btw, bosses on LOA are not meant to be done solo.


-DM Digger (LOA)


Last edited by Digger on Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Druid Shifting and Full Heal

Post  Kaedrin on Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:30 pm

While you guys from LoA are here, is there a way to contact you guys by email or IM? I've tried PM'ing on your forums, IM'ing via windows messenger, and emailing via gmail and haven't had any luck getting a response.

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Re: Druid Shifting and Full Heal

Post  Lord_Spanky on Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:27 pm

Digger wrote:"I CANT MAKE MYSELF ANY CLEARER THAN THIS .. I DO NOT NEED NOR USE SHIFT HEAL EXPLOITATIVELY IN A BOSS FIGHT .."

Then why do you care that you will no longer regain HP?

Your main complaint is that when an auto save hits, you need to reshift. Nobody is going to stop you from doing that, you will still be able to have unlimited shifts...so whats the problem?

However, doing so will no longer automatically restore your HP to full, but as you said several times, your not shifting to heal yourself...so this should not effect you at all.

Btw, bosses on LOA are not meant to be done solo.

So for the record Kaedrin, myself and the rest of the staff on LOA agree that this needs to be fixed (as is planned in your next release), so that you no longer regain hp when shifting.

-DM Digger (LOA)

you obviously didnt read through my posts ..

NO absolutely not .. i do not shift to heal myself ..

but in order to continue fighting you must reshift and usually rebuff after autosave ..

my ab drops down to low 30s and my ac drops down 16 points ..

this makes my character impotent and in order to become effective at dealing damage a reshift must occur ..

if you are being attacked by a powerful opponent when you do this, you WILL take massive damage ..

this is damage you otherwise would not take if the autosave hadnt occured.

therefore healing the damage you take when you are forced by a bug to reshift is only fair.

i dont understand whats difficult to grasp about this concept.

not having shift heal will PROFOUNDLY affect my characters effectiveness ..

because no matter what i will continue to suffer the effects of autosave bug in tough fights and be forced to reshift .. which otherwise i would not have to do ..

i feel like im talking to a wall ..

all i sense from you is a very biased opinion .. and its clear to me that you will not change your mind no matter how much sense i make ..

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Re: Druid Shifting and Full Heal

Post  Lord_Spanky on Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:47 pm

i just now realized something ..

in the single player campaign .. when you shift you retain the loss of whatever hp you currently have missing .. but you obviously gain the additional life provided by the form itself.

so if you were less 120 hp before you shift you are still less 120 hp after .. but now you have much more life obviously because the form does ..

its actually not that bad ..

i hadnt done campaign in a long time .. so for some reason i was thinking that the life would translate totally ..

where if you have 80 hp left before you shift .. then you still have only 80 hp after you shift ..

so now you can imagine what i was talking about by being doomed in boss fight ..

in fact it would be 80 + whatever extra hp the shifted form has ..

i can deal with this ..

i was just confused about the way it would work .. because like i said .. i hadnt played the single player game in a while ..

if you want to remove shift full heal i can live with it ..

ill just keep a premonition on reserve for when auto save kicks in and use it before i reshift so i dont die.

sorry to create such long winded posts .. but i put a lot of effort into my shifters and i had the wrong idea about what removing shift heal would do ..

keadrin .. sorry for drama .. you have my blessing to appease the LoA crew Very Happy

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Re: Druid Shifting and Full Heal

Post  Digger on Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:00 pm

Kaedrin wrote:While you guys from LoA are here, is there a way to contact you guys by email or IM? I've tried PM'ing on your forums, IM'ing via windows messenger, and emailing via gmail and haven't had any luck getting a response.

not sure who exactly you have emailed or pmed & got no response from (wasnt me), but you can PM me your skype addy if you have one.

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Re: Druid Shifting and Full Heal

Post  Lord_Spanky on Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:45 pm

oh no ..

i forgot about adamantine weapons bypassing premonition ..

yeah .. if you remove the shift heal it will definately cause me to get killed by the autosave bug more often (which i still do even with heal) ..

and it still causes spell and round wasting ..

definately still a disadvantage no matter how you look at it .. even with shift heal ..

still tho .. i guess knowing what i know now about hp after shifting vs what i thought before does make it at least doable ..

i will just have to be more thoughtful and time things more carefully during a fight i guess ..


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Re: Druid Shifting and Full Heal

Post  Lord_Spanky on Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:47 am

PLEASE IGNORE the previous long winded posts and read this one. it sums up the most basic facts about my argument.

ok lets just think about this logically and hopefully unbiasedly on everyones part.

before i begin .. i just want to reiterate that no, i dont need nor do i use shift to heal outside of the autosave bug.

using shift to heal exploitatively aside, every 5 minutes after an autosave i lose mass hp, abilities, ac, ab, and dmg .. rendering my character impotent ..

to continue fighting effectively i MUST deshift and reshift .. this process vs a tough opponent will always leave me with 100-250+ less hp once i reshift, than if the auto save had not happened in the first place.

not to mention the loss of necessary (necessary cuz the low damage of melee shifter cannot be supplemented by item dmg or ab) damage spells (storm avatar flamesword) which are lost with the bug and must now be recast.

finally, the reshifting and recasting process will waste rounds, during which time i can deal no damage (im already slow as a tortoise with my low ab and dmg) in return to my opponent.

All of this Ive said so far, I think we can ALL agree is a bug induced handicap, which unfairly degrades the chance of survival of the character and in no way provides benefits of any kind.

Without shift heal, the autosave bug will be a 100% handicap to the shifter. With shift heal, you will at least have some compensation

However, even with shift heal, the compensation is not unfairly balanced in favor of survival.

This is because even with the shift heal, you still suffer the loss of 2 buffs of damage, which must now be recast to regain the benefit, as well as a loss of rounds in which you are unfairly deprived of doing damage to your opponent.

I hope I have now made a more concise and easy to follow case for shift heal.



Last edited by Lord_Spanky on Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:11 pm; edited 9 times in total

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Re: Druid Shifting and Full Heal

Post  Meesterslager on Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:49 am

Kaedrin wrote:While you guys from LoA are here, is there a way to contact you guys by email or IM? I've tried PM'ing on your forums, IM'ing via windows messenger, and emailing via gmail and haven't had any luck getting a response.

I have responded to your PM, at 25-6-2011, with a mail to the emailadress u provided.
mail header is LOA penetrating shot/forum PM

Adam told me he has issues with MSN, (he didnt get a kaedrin wants to add u notification) and U have his Gmail Account.
I neither seen another email/PM or MSN notification.

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Re: Druid Shifting and Full Heal

Post  Kaedrin on Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:46 pm

Ok, I checked the script and you already have the tool needed to turn off the healing if you turned on unlimited shifting.

Change row 41 from 1 to 0.


If you want to discuss with your server admins allowing the greater magic fang line to exceed +5 the cmi_option for that is in as well: row 32

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Re: Druid Shifting and Full Heal

Post  Lord_Spanky on Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:19 pm

Kaedrin wrote:Ok, I checked the script and you already have the tool needed to turn off the healing if you turned on unlimited shifting.

Change row 41 from 1 to 0.


If you want to discuss with your server admins allowing the greater magic fang line to exceed +5 the cmi_option for that is in as well: row 32

thats what i told digger before i ever posted here ..

he thought it was a bug ..

i told him it was implemented intentionally and that it could be turned on and off at will with a line of code ..

i knew this because i happened to see it in an old patch info post ..

anywayz ty for clarifying this kaedrin ..

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