Questions about Sneak Attack

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Questions about Sneak Attack

Post  Thorsson on Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:28 pm

So first off - what Sneak Attacks trigger Dark Lantern's ability to get Crippling Strike? Does Assassin Death Attack for instance? Do Dark Lanterns get access to other Rogue Feats?

Second - Daring Outlaw. Same issue. What Sneak Attacks trigger the ability to take this Feat?

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Re: Questions about Sneak Attack

Post  Kaedrin on Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:56 pm

First - Only normal sneak attack. Death Attack does not. No other rogue feats.

Only real sneak attacks count for this feat. Rogue, Thug, Scout, etc. No blackguard, no assassin, no arctrick, etc.

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Re: Questions about Sneak Attack

Post  Thorsson on Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:06 am

OK I made a character with 7 levels of Swashbuckler, 2 levels of Dark Lantern and 3 levels of Whirling Dervish on the Tales of Amn Beta, which I think is currently using unadulterated 1.42. I tried to take the Daring Outlaw Feat but was unable to. Is this correct?

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Re: Questions about Sneak Attack

Post  Kaedrin on Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:14 pm

You found a bug that has been there for years that no one reported. Whirling Dervish levels aren't used for stacking sneak attack dice. I'll add it to my next server build.
Which reminds me I need to talk to the staff of Amn as they are making fixes but not sharing them.

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Re: Questions about Sneak Attack

Post  Thorsson on Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:51 pm

Thanks and definitely do; we don't want another bad apple.

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Re: Questions about Sneak Attack

Post  Kaedrin on Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:35 pm

It won't be anything like that. Trinity has been using my stuff for like 5 years and has never once given me a bug fix. They haven't updated my stuff in about three years I think. Amn hasn't in about six months now (many bugs I've seen on the forums were fixed in 1.42.1).

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Re: Questions about Sneak Attack

Post  Thorsson on Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:37 am

I know that you're thinking of changing these Feats anyway, but should Swift Hunter & Swift Ambusher "stack"? That is if you have Swift Ambusher should Swift Hunter give Ranger Rogue-like Sneak Attack? I'm guessing not.

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Re: Questions about Sneak Attack

Post  Kaedrin on Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:30 pm

When I did the feats, everything I could find on the charop forums indicated that they should. That's how I implemented it. That said, I never expected the feats to be turned on for MP. Because of the rounding up I did, it is possible to get 1d6 more than it should be in certain situations.

When I change the feats I will be removing any excess sneak dice the character has.

I'm also changing the nightsong auras to be activated buffs that tell the recipient what they are getting and for how long.

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Re: Questions about Sneak Attack

Post  Thorsson on Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:58 am

According to Redrazors here it doesn't actually stack; not tried it myself. Note to self: must do.

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Re: Questions about Sneak Attack

Post  Kaedrin on Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:03 am

They all stack, but only according their own rules.

Daring Outlaw turns Swashbuckler levels into Rogue levels (up to the Daring Outlaw cap).
Swift Ambusher turns Scout levels into Rogue levels.
Swift Hunter turns Ranger levels into Scout levels.

So..

For every 2 levels of swashbuckler you get 1d6 sneak from Daring Outlaw.
For every 2 levels of Scout you get 1d6 sneak from Swift Ambusher.
For every 4 levels of Ranger you get 1d6 sneak from Swift Hunter.

Redrazors is correct but so am I. They all stack, but they don't all get converted into rogue dice. They did when the feats first came out (and the builder probably used the logic from that release but never updated).

The build as posted only gets 8d6. A Ranger 22/Scout 5/SD1/DL2 would get 5d6 for Ranger, 3d6 for Scout, and 1d6 for DL for a 9d6 total. The reason being is that 4 levels of scout (as a rogue) would only get 2d6, not 3d6 that a level 5 rogue would get (sneak die on odd levels).


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Re: Questions about Sneak Attack

Post  Thorsson on Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:39 pm

All is now clear, but you were proposing to change these. Now that there's a fix for Uncanny Dodge I would ask you not to, at least unless something else is changed - using Ranger/SB with these Feats will be one of the few ways to land Sneak Attacks on any PW with a fixed UD. Medium AB attacks will be a thing of the past.

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Re: Questions about Sneak Attack

Post  Kaedrin on Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:54 pm

On servers with that fix I except the Thug will become a rather popular "rogue" since it's full BAB, full sneak, and just needs a splash of Rogue/DL/SD to shore up the weak rogue areas. That's a 28 BAB if you want crippling and hips. 27 if you toss in WhirDerv for ImpEvasion.

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Re: Questions about Sneak Attack

Post  marnold on Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:41 am

Kaedrin wrote:On servers with that fix I except the Thug will become a rather popular "rogue" since it's full BAB, full sneak, and just needs a splash of Rogue/DL/SD to shore up the weak rogue areas. That's a 28 BAB if you want crippling and hips. 27 if you toss in WhirDerv for ImpEvasion.
Wouldn't it be 27 for Crippling Strike? Or is there another way to get it other than 10 Rogue (-3 AB at 1st, 5th, and 10th). Still pretty powerful for a sneaker.

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Re: Questions about Sneak Attack

Post  Kaedrin on Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:14 pm

Dark Lantern allows you to take Crippling Strike while leveling up if you have 4d6 of sneak attack.

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Re: Questions about Sneak Attack

Post  marnold on Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:20 pm

Kaedrin wrote:On servers with that fix I except the Thug will become a rather popular "rogue" since it's full BAB, full sneak, and just needs a splash of Rogue/DL/SD to shore up the weak rogue areas. That's a 28 BAB if you want crippling and hips. 27 if you toss in WhirDerv for ImpEvasion.
I know that no one is posting here anymore and no one probably is reading either, but for kicks I thought I'd post a followup anyway. I started a Thug character for this purpose, but I've come to the conclusion that Swashbuckler with Daring Outlaw is better anyway.

In the Thug scenario with 28 BAB outlined above, your HiPS will be crippled because you won't be able to take any points in Hide/MS until you take the Dark Lantern level which puts you at least 8 points behind. Even if you cross-class you will just end up chewing up skill points which limits your effectiveness as a rogue. Plus if you don't have trapfinding, well, you're not really a rogue anyway IMO.

Swashbuckler gives you Weapon Finesse and Mobility for free (and eventually Luck of Heroes). It also gives Improved Flanking which is handy. Insightful Strike will put that high INT to good use, at least against non-crit-immunes (it will work on crit immunes with Epic Precision and it stacks with Combat Insight). You are limited to a choice of two of HiPS, Crippling Strike, or Improved Evasion. I'd opt for the first two easily. Since Swashbuckler has Reflex as a high save now (plus the bonus from Grace), the evasion you get with level 2 rogue will do the trick. So you'd end up with 3 Rogue, 1 Dark Lantern, 1 Shadowdancer, 25 Swashbuckler. That's 27 BAB with HiPS and 14d6 Sneak Attack (7d6 vs. crit immunes). With perfect two-weapon fighting you'd get 12 attacks per round. Not at all bad. You'd be a Cuisinart of Doom (tm).

If Uncanny Dodge actually worked as per PnP, it'd be worth taking a fourth level of Rogue for it. Everything else would stay the same. As with every Rogueish build, you'd need some sort of item with immunity to mind-affecting. You'll eventually get Slippery Mind, but not until level 22 and your will save won't be very hot regardless.

You would have to take a class with Rogue as the favored class which means no elven Keen Senses sadly. I like Tieflings for their bonus to DEX and INT (18 each to start for me), but Halflings or Shadowy Feytouched would work without the -1 level adjustment. Human and Half-Elf also works but your stats will suffer to start. Conversely with human you'd gain a skill point and a feat, which is nothing to sneeze at.

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Re: Questions about Sneak Attack

Post  Thorsson on Sun May 18, 2014 5:04 pm

Even less likely that anyone will read now, but yes, SB with DA is better than Thug.

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Re: Questions about Sneak Attack

Post  marnold on Mon May 19, 2014 1:03 pm

Thorsson wrote:Even less likely that anyone will read now, but yes, SB with DA is better than Thug.
Just to prove I am still reading, did you mean DO for Daring Outlaw or DL for Dark Lantern?

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